Soup For Two

While reviewing the Ramirez files at the Los Angeles Archives and Records Center, we came across an original trial document that sheds additional light on the Vincow case. Notably, a statement made by Detective Jesse Castillo, who was assigned to investigate the Vincow crime scene, caught our attention. Detective Castillo reported that when he arrived at the crime scene on the afternoon of June 28, 1984, he discovered the brutal murder of Jennie Vincow and also noticed two soup bowls in the kitchen.

Although the details about the soup bowls may seem inconsequential, they raise significant questions when we consider Jennie’s relationship with her sons, especially Jack, who visited her each afternoon. The fact that Jennie prepared two bowls of soup on the day of her murder is noteworthy. Why had she prepared two bowls of soup the very day she was murdered? Was she anticipating a visitor for lunch? If so, who could it have been? Jack Vincow confirmed he visited his mother daily between 1p.m-2 p.m. So, was Jennie preparing soup for herself and Jack fully aware of his daily routine? We can be certain Richard Ramirez hadn’t been invited over for soup.

It is concerning that the soup bowls in the kitchen were overlooked and seemingly disappeared, as they may have been key pieces of evidence. Why were these potential sources of evidence disregarded? Testing these bowls for trace evidence may have helped identify who was in Jennie’s apartment on the day of her murder. Furthermore, why has the fact that there were two soups bowls on the kitchen table been hidden for decades and buried deep in the files of the Los Angeles Archives? As of the writing of this post, no further information is available regarding these mysterious soup bowls. Once again, we are left with more questions than answers, a common theme in the so-called Nightstalker crimes.

Philip Carlos’s book includes some interesting information concerning Wanda Doss, the owner of the apartment building where Jennie and Jack Vincow lived. The source of his information is not noted. However, regarding the trial, Carlo seems to have had access to sources we do not. Perhaps he had access to the documents buried in the archives files that were unavailable to us. According to Carlo, Wanda Doss reportedly wrote a statement claiming that she saw Jack having breakfast in Jennie’s apartment just hours before she was found dead. When the Hernandez’s sought to present this as evidence, Halpin promptly objected, dismissing it as “hearsay.” Judge Tynan quickly concurred and sustained the objection, which prevented the information from being presented in court.

When we consider that Jennie’s time of death was estimated to have been within 2-3 hours of when she had been found, this aligns closely with when Wanda Doss was alleged to have seen him in the apartment. If Wanda Doss had indeed written a statement about seeing Jack in his mother’s apartment on the morning of the day she was murdered, this could explain his reluctance to cooperate with law enforcement. Jack Vincow’s lack of cooperation with police after his mother’s murder raises substantial concerns about his potential involvement in the crime.

Within the same document that addresses the mysterious soup bowls, statements from LAPD latent fingerprint technician Renaldo Clara emerge, highlighting his analysis of the window screen at the Vincow crime scene.

During the trial in 1989, Clara testified that he could not determine when the fingerprint had been left on the window screen. However, his initial statement reported that it could have been left up to a year before the crime occurred.

While this may seem like a minor detail, it is important because Clara’s original statement directly contradicts his court testimony. He initially claimed that the fingerprint on the window screen “could have been left up to a year before the crime” but later stated that he could not determine the timeframe for when the partial fingerprint was left. The inconsistency in his statements highlights further uncertainty regarding the timeline of the evidence.

There were also issues with Clara’s fingerprinting procedure. He prematurely removed the window screen from the crime scene before lifting for prints, exposing the evidence to potentially compromising environmental factors that could affect the integrity of the findings. This important detail has been conspicuously omitted from other trial documents.

The inconsistencies in Clara’s statements and his fingerprinting method raise further doubt about the reliability and integrity of the fingerprint evidence in the Vincow case.

KayCee


56 responses to “Soup For Two”

  1. Nothing surprises me anymore; I just get angrier and angrier.

    Liked by 8 people

    1. I know right why does everyone involved in this case have to be so incompetent? I don’t know if it’s ignorance or just pure laziness. It seems as if they didn’t investigate any of these cases properly. There are so many questions. But little answers.

      Liked by 5 people

      1. Richard’s case is so fascinating to me because everything that could go wrong went wrong. For at least thirteen murder cases. HOW!

        Liked by 7 people

    2. I know. Just when you think nothing else can surely be questionable, something else appears.
      It’s absolutely insane.

      Liked by 5 people

  2. woooow the soup The soup thing a new one for me! But seriously how could Clara not know not to take finger prints like that?and why wouldn’t they interrogate her 2 sons? They are the prime suspect for me in this case, wasn’t one of her son forgot his name but was told to take a lie detector test but was very hesitant to take it? Cuz I mean that action to me screams suspicion

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Yeah it’s weird to take the screen out of the house, because then there’s confusion over which side the prints were on.
      Yes, Jack took the polygraph. Manny was ‘proven’ to have been in Brooklyn by Halpin…

      Liked by 5 people

      1. I never even knew finger prints could last up to a year that’s new for me too. If it has been proven by halpin I wonder why it wasn’t used in court trial? They should have kept insisting on him using the polygraph test instead of excuse it

        Liked by 3 people

      2. But I don´t understand why it matters if the screen was inside or outside the house, regarding the inner or outer side of it. The screen was removed by the killer. He took it inside the house and nobody knows which side he made facing the ground or the ceiling or however the screen was placed. So we could never be sure which side was the outer or inner side of the screen. But shouldn’t there be any signs, scratches , screwmarks to show how the screen had been fixed before? (I’m not familar with american screens.) And although it probably didn´t play a big role regarding the inner or outer side, the screen should have been fotographed properly, before it was moved and then again, after it was lifted, from both sides, maybe with a sign which side was the upper side etc. . And it shouldn’t have been brought outside anyway, because of possible contamination. Some nice dust or leaves or insects are always good on fingerprints. Especially if you don’t just look at loops whorls and arches but also on minutiae patterns.

        Liked by 4 people

      3. The prints must have been on the outside too because why would he be picking at it from the inside? The defence were grasping too hard with this one in my opinion. Although it must have worked because the jury even considered Richard not being guilty because they were outside, which isn’t logical to me. No one ever is!

        Liked by 5 people

      4. American window screens are pretty generic looking, at least in the 80s they were. So it would not have been possible to identify the inner or outer portion if the screen was placed on the floor. Sure there could be scratches, etc. but that wouldn’t help you figure out which side it was if it was lying on the floor. Taking it outside would have exposed it the various things you identified. Who knows how many individuals may have walked by it/brushed up against it, etc., causing further exposure to elements outside the apartment.

        Liked by 3 people

      5. German window sceens usually have little hooks on the inner side to hook or clip them into the window frames. So it’s pretty clear which side is the inner or outer one. If the screen is screwed to the window frame, the screws should leave marks. The outer side is probably dirtier than the inner side. It’s hard to believe that you can’t find out which side was the inner side, but ok…

        Liked by 2 people

      6. Especially in LA which has smog and poor air quality. It’s such a grimy place.

        Liked by 3 people

    2. I’m not sure of the exact way fingerprinting was done in the 80s but I think they knew not to remove evidence before printing. Perhaps Clara thought he could dust for prints better with the screen outside. I have not seen an explanation about why he moved it.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Ahh ok I see, but it’s really ridiculous that even if they knew not to do this that they still did it it’s like tampering with evidence I guess but not really

        Liked by 3 people

      2. I think it was definitely something that had a good likelihood of compromising the evidence. Clara was a fingerprint technician and should have known that it wasn’t acceptable to move evidence before printing, etc. Perhaps that’s why the information about his methods was rather conveniently left out of other trial documents.

        Liked by 3 people

      3. I think Daniel Hernandez questioned the technicians for a long time about technique, but all Carlo could say was how bored the jury was. For all we know, Daniel might have been asking him if taking the evidence outside was normal practice. Although Daniel H was shit, he also suffered from extreme media bias. He might even have been asking all the right questions.

        Liked by 4 people

  3. wait do you guys think Clara purposely took the screen off like that and as venning said they wouldn’t know which sides the prints were on and maybe thought ok let’s “switch” the side and make it look like it came from Richard? Or am I just speaking nonsense 😂

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I think it’s just incompetence. I know police weren’t as skilled back then. Maybe it’s that.

      Liked by 3 people

    2. This happened a year before the Night-Stalker-attacks, Clara couldn’t know anything about a serial killer when he moved the screen. 😉

      Liked by 5 people

      1. Exactly. It was just bad practice.

        Liked by 3 people

    3. Nothing really surprises me anymore about the shady stuff that went on with Richard’s case. Infuriates me yes, but nothing they did surprises me. They were seeking to connect him to all of the crimes by any means necessary.

      Liked by 3 people

  4. It’s also worth mentioning here that in the past, it was believed that if someone covers the face of their victim, the killer was someone they knew. Jennie Vincow was covered. Recent data says this is not actually true, BUT older victims are statistically more likely to be covered by the perpetrator. And it’s also worth comparing it to the deaths of other elderly victims. Bell and Lang were not covered. Neither was Mary Cannon. Two of them were face down but no one put sheets over them and tucked them into bed. So to me it suggests a different killer.

    Liked by 6 people

    1. Don’t forget: his MO was no MO.

      Liked by 4 people

      1. That convenient old excuse!

        Liked by 5 people

      2. interesting-case Avatar
        interesting-case

        Never in history has a serial killers MO been “NO MO” 🤣

        Liked by 2 people

  5. I have a question. You wrote “and also noticed two soup bowls on the kitchen table” . But on the pic that you posted, is said only that he noticed 2 bowls for soup “in the kitchen”. Is there more info about Detective Castillo’s statement? I’m asking because it made me angry how imprecise court documents apparently are. “bowls for soup in the kitchen” I suppose they were not used, but can I be sure? They could be on the table, in the sink, on the floor, in a cupboard. That makes a big difference in this case. What about spoons? Was there any soup around? Did they eat soup the day before maybe? Did Jack know anything about soup? Did he want to bring it maybe? Two “bowls for soup in the kitchen” that’s not enough for me. 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Excactely ! Genau ! It s unbelievable how unprofessional the documentation of the 2 soup bowls findings were . Didn t they take fotos etc ? This makes me angry !

      Liked by 3 people

    2. I reported the only information that’s on the trial document and unfortunately that’s all there is. At least it’s all that we have uncovered. This does indeed leave many questions unanswered. There’s nothing about any spoons or about whether the bowls had been used or not, whether there was anything in them, or their exact location. It appears as though they were disregarded as a source of evidence. Which is absurd. They could have checked them for fingerprints, saliva, etc. There is nothing that suggests they did any such thing. So again, it appears to be another case where an adequate, thorough investigation was not conducted. I suppose there is also the possibility that they did test the bowls and did not report the outcomes.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Speculation: The LAPD/Castillo could very well have collected all the required evidence. But once the LASD came looking for cold cases and the LAPD handed it over as part of the Night Stalker thing, the relevant evidence might have been buried. Jack Vincow remained the prime suspect up until September 1985. The LAPD just never had enough evidence to charge him. See also how Monterey Park PD were looking into Yu’s boyfriend but once the LASD took over, that aspect was buried and you never hear about the medallion and whether it was tested for prints or who it belonged to. We know the car doors were tested but have no information on whether prints were found, gloves or otherwise.

        Then Richard Ramirez came along as the perfect scapegoat and they could mould anything into him because he didn’t have an M.O. If this can happen, then it’s not too much of stretch of the imagination to think that police files can ‘vanish’ when handed from one agency to another. Then surprise! His fingerprint is allegedly on Jennie’s window frame/screen, cold case solved!

        And it’s so convenient that the database never flagged the prints up for a whole year, despite Ramirez’s arrests and prints being taken in mid-1983 and December 1984. It’s only when task forces were looking to pin crimes on him that it miraculously matched to the orange car and Vincow. The police conveniently brush it off with ‘oh, it’s because criminals born in 1960 didn’t get uploaded until September 1985’ but the timing is too perfect and seems like a movie script, or a cheap whodunnit drama. The whole ‘unique’ shoe thing takes it from the just-about-believable to the utterly preposterous.

        Liked by 5 people

    3. These are the questions I also have. What led him to conclude they were for soup or is “soup bowls” just descriptor of the bowls? Carlo said Jack was bringing chicken nuggets from McDonald’s. Could these bowls have been anticipating Jack arriving for lunch?

      Liked by 6 people

      1. Yes, that’s the question. It’s all about her time of death. Would she prepare bowls for the next day before she went to bed?

        Liked by 3 people

      2. That’s a good point, and it’s so frustrating that all these questions will never be answered.

        Liked by 4 people

  6. Yes , and I think the evidents in the Vincow case are not sufficient , the fingerprints is the only thing they had and meanwhile I think that good attorneys had torn them apart , as not usuable . Because they might really have been 1 year old , so no proof that Richard was a the crime scene on that very date and time . Plus the soup bowls .

    Liked by 1 person

    1. In the federal petition it states 4 prints were lifted from the window screen and one from the interior of the living room window. It was a partial print on the screen that was identified as Richard’s. There were also unidentifiable prints on the screen. Partial prints are more difficult to interpret, decreasing the reliability of the findings. The prosecution shifted the burden of proof to the defense to prove when Richard’s fingerprint was allegedly left at the scene. But the inept Hernandez’s didn’t bother to dispute the fingerprint evidence or demonstrate it wasn’t their responsibility to prove Richard didn’t leave the print. It was the prosecutions job to prove he did.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Yes , so they actually had one fingerprint which was only a half fingerprint . The other fingerprints were too old or not from Richard . Of course I m not an expert whether a partial fingerprint can be used at all and in the first place , one would have to ask a defense law person whether that was a common practise , whether that is ” allowed “at all. To me this seems to be not sufficient .

        Liked by 2 people

  7. Seeing how badly these investigations were performed. I really want to know what investigative procedures if any were generally used in the 80’s. They either lost of ignored pieces of potential evidence, didn’t follow up on or throughly examine potential suspects, contaminated crime scenes, ect. I don’t understand how they fucked up this bad. There is also the possibility that the prosecution ‘potentially’ purposefully destroyed evidence that would’ve been beneficial to the defense.

    Liked by 4 people

  8. All that kind shit does is lessen the amount of responsibility that the criminal should take for their crimes. How the hell does a certain placement of stars and planets cause Dahmer to brutally assault,murder,and cannibalize his victims? It’s all just a joke to them. These events were real with real consequences and suffering. These people had a choice in whether they were going to give into their sick desires or not. Dumbing down their decisions to celestial or universal forces being at play simply minimizes the suffering that the victims went and almost absolves the perpetrators of guilt because “forces outside of their control were at play”.

    Liked by 4 people

  9. I know it sounds really insensitive. But the truth of the matter is serial killers are a jackpot for the media,law enforcement,and politicians, especially in the states. Movies, documentaries,shows,books,and other media material can be made off of them for a great amount of profit. Law enforcement can contrive ways to connect them to unsolved or cold cases to help increase their clearance rates and make them look like heroes in the eyes of the public. Politicians can use the fear and hysteria to push their own political agenda and gain favor in the public. It’s a win for everybody, all at the expense of the innocent victims. The part I hate the most is that they all act high than thou and berate and insult those who question anything about the case, at the same time as profiting off of it. You can’t have it both ways.

    Liked by 6 people

    1. I agree with all of your comment! There are some who hoped the Night Stalker would get them promotion, as say, County Sheriff… Prosecutors also want the glory of putting serial killers behind bars. I’ve noticed with a lot of these crime documentaries, especially US ones, the detectives really talk themselves up and pat themselves on the back as if they love the glory that comes from solving a crime. Prosecutors and even criminal profilers come across very big-headed.

      Liked by 5 people

    2. Yes to all of this. If I would frame this comment I could, you have articulated perfectly how it is, and how it continues to be. Ramirez is a great money spinner, look at all those who grift off him, including his own family. When the leading detective is touting himself around on every podcast going, in films, documentaries, comedy nights (sickos) and his lovely dining evenings, it shows just how far some people will take this.
      This tragedy has been turned into mass entertainment.

      Liked by 3 people

  10. I noticed that it said that Deputy Castillo testified to the either being torn or missing, was it mentioned anywhere that Jennie Vincow was possibly sexually assaulted?

    Like

    1. Yes, it’s in the Petition.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Is it mentioned if they found any bodily fluids such as salvia or semen or any other signs that may point to a sexual assault?

        Liked by 1 person

  11. I apologize I didn’t finish my comment I was referring to the crotch area of Jennie Vincow’s girdle being missing or torn.

    Like

    1. It’s okay, I knew what you meant!

      Liked by 1 person

  12. This case will always bother me. The bowls: was she expecting someone that day? Yes – Jack visited every day. If they were left out from the day before, we know Jack visited. We also know the building manager saw a man resembling Jack in the house which is why he said it could have been his brother.

    Jack is still alive today, I think (although he doesn’t come up in many records). So he’d have been maybe 45 back then. What job did he have that enabled him to visit his mother every afternoon between 1-2? It’s all strange to me.

    Either way, he’s in the frame. Richard wasn’t seen there so how did his prints get on the window? It’s difficult to believe this one was him.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I recently watched a movie called Insomnia (2002), starring Al Pacino and Robin Williams, and there was a particularly striking moment that stuck with me. In one scene, a detective admits to tampering with evidence. He explained that he was certain the suspect was a murderer and child molester, but the evidence they had to prove his guilt was insufficient. To ensure the suspect’s conviction, the detective took blood from the suspect and planted it on the child’s clothes, solidifying the case against him. The suspect was sentenced to life in prison, and no one ever questioned or spoke up about the blatant evidence tampering.

      This made me think about the manipulation and corruption we often see in high-profile cases. Considering the amount of shady behavior surrounding Richard’s case, I wouldn’t put it past investigators to have planted his fingerprints on the Vincow window. It seems like they were determined to make Richard take the fall, no matter the cost. Given the media frenzy and public perception, Richard was essentially found guilty before the trial even began. With such a strong presumption of guilt, few would stop to question whether something was amiss with the evidence presented against him. I genuinely believe that a large percentage of law enforcement officers in the United States are fair and care deeply about justice. However, there will always be those who prioritize securing a conviction above everything else—even if it means bending or breaking the rules and putting someone’s life and freedom at risk.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. That’s what I think. Planting them. Because why the need to take them when they had the man in custody? I need to research cases where this has happened.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. Weren’t they raving about a new computer or device that helped them match Richard’s prints? Doesn’t that mean they already have his prints on file?

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Yes, that’s right.
        They fed his name into the computer and it gave them eight suspects with the same name. From there they examined by eye.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. That’s like unplugging a device, then plugging it back in and being surprised when it works. Of course, if you type his name into the computer, it’s going to show up—it’s expected! The whole point of using a device like that is to have a more accurate and reliable method of matching fingerprints, not just matching them by eye. If they were simply doing a visual comparison, it defeats the purpose of using the technology in the first place. It seems more like a strategy to give the impression of advanced technology or progress, possibly as a way to deceive or mislead the public about the true nature of their investigation.

        Liked by 2 people

      5. I wonder what the point of the other story was. Just to make the police look good, I suppose. The dramatic story of a newly invented program that pulled his prints out of 300k suspects is more exciting.

        Liked by 3 people

      6. And to make it sound more legitimate, rather than what actually happened.

        Liked by 1 person

      7. Yep, Venning wrote a good piece on this: “Eight Richard Ramirezes”, exposing yet more twisted narratives.

        Liked by 2 people

      8. Yeah and that turned out to be a lie. It was the special new Cal ID computer story. I noticed this didn’t match the “we found 8 Richard Ramirezes” on a database in Sacramento story on Netflix. I started looking into it, then discovered that Carlo had already exposed this lie. So, even the fingerprints story is not straightforward!

        Liked by 3 people

      9. Seeing as how they hinge taped an overlay over the shoeprint impressions to make them more “visible” to the jury. I don’t trust the credibility of this evidence either. How hard is it to do a honest investigation?! I find it hilarious that Carlo couldn’t even ignore and cover this crap up!

        Liked by 2 people

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