The Kneiding Incident

**** This post contains crime scene details. Reader discretion is advised. The intention is not to offend but to provide information. Proceed only if you are agreeable to reading sensitive content. ****

Maxson and Lela Kneiding were a couple in their sixties who lived in a Glendale neighborhood near a large construction site. An elevated freeway ran behind their house. The Kneidings’ daughter, Judith Arnold, reported she saw her parents on the morning of July 19, 1985. They made plans to meet the following morning for breakfast. When her parents did not show up at the restaurant, Judith went to their home. She arrived at 8:15 a.m., entered through the back door and found them brutally murdered in their bed. The Kneidings had been stabbed and shot. Glendale Police arrived at the residence around 9:25 a.m.

Physical evidence at the crime scene:

  • The screen on the rear door was cut and stretched near the doorknob.
  • Bedroom window slightly open.
  • House was ransacked.
  • Blood stains and spatter found at the head of the bed, walls, curtains and on the light.
  • Blood spatter had multi-directional patterns and ran upward at a 45 degree angle.
  • A large clump of bloody hair was found on the curtain, seven feet above the floor – thought to be Lela’s.
  • A clump of bloody hair in Lela’s right hand.
  • Hair samples were collected from the bedroom carpet.
  • A shirt with reddish-brown stains and a hair was found at the construction site next door.
  • Bullet fragments collected from the carpet.

Lela Kneiding’s death resulted from two gunshot wounds to the head: One in the cheek area and another to the back of the head. The wound to the cheek area was caused by a weapon fired at close range. The shot to the back of the head was a contact-type wound, indicating that the gun barrel was close to the head when the weapon was fired. A small-caliber bullet was recovered from the wound to the back of her head. She also had a cut to her throat that began above her right ear. Defensive wounds on Lela’s hands and bruises on her shoulder suggested that she had fought her attacker.

Maxson Kneiding’s death resulted from a gunshot wound to the neck. No bullet was recovered, and it could not be determined at what distance he had been shot. He also had four incised wounds to the neck that varied in size from 3/4″-3″ in depth. 

There was no forensic evidence that could tie Richard Ramirez to the crime scene. None of the hairs found at the Kneiding residence belonged to him. The hair on the curtain and in Lela’s hand was similar to her own. Pubic hairs found on a bedspread did not belong to Ramirez or the Kneidings.

The reddish-stained T-shirt discovered at a the construction site was not tested until 1988, by LASD criminalist Steve Renteria. He discovered that it did not contain any blood, and the hairs recovered from it did not match Ramirez’s. No fingerprints or shoeprints were recovered from the property.

Police Disagreed Over Ballistics Results

A conflict arose between firearms examiners regarding the origin of the expended slugs. In the September 1985 affidavit (habeas corpus supporting document 7-4) Sergeant Robert Christansen of the LASD stated the Kneidings were shot with a .25 caliber ACP (automatic pistol). He believed this was the same weapon used at another Night Stalker murder on the same night as the Kneidings (the Khovananth attack). Below is an image from the affidavit.

From the Affidavit, Document 7-4

Christansen also believed the same .25 ACP was used in several other Night Stalker attacks in August 1985: Abowath, Petersen, Carns and Pan.

Yet in July 1985, another LASD firearms examiner, Robert Hawkins concluded that the bullets originated from the same .22 caliber revolver used in the Okazaki and Yu crimes.

Sergeant Robert Hawkins’ report from Document 7-20

Ultimately, the prosecution enlisted the testimony of a third firearms examiner during the trial, Sergeant Edward Robinson. Robinson agreed with Robert Hawkins’ conclusion that the bullets matched Okazaki and Yu. Yet without the gun and with such significant bullet distortion, genuine comparison was impossible. Remarkably, the defense did not dispute the unreliable firearms evidence presented by the prosecution.

One of the defense attorneys even stated, “You have to assume that the ballistics evidence is correct.” Ray Clark admitted to only asking generic questions. The internal conflict regarding the ballistics raised serious doubts about its reliability and the need for retesting, as highlighted by Paul Dougherty, who was retained for the appeals process (Document 7-20). For an in-depth analysis of the problematic ballistics, refer to this post.

The prosecution claimed Richard Ramirez traveled nearly 15 miles to the Khovananth residence “within minutes” after the murders. This raises questions about how he could have cleaned himself of biological evidence in such a short time. He would have arrived covered in blood and other traces from the Kneiding scene and yet the surviving victim only observed that he wore a blue shirt with multicolored patterns.

It is reasonable to expect that some blood or trace evidence would have been transferred between the Kneiding and Khovananth scenes. The Pontiac vehicle Ramirez allegedly used was examined thoroughly, but no blood, hair, or other biological evidence from the Kneiding crime or any other related crime was found. Had such evidence been present, the prosecution would likely have used it against him.

The prosecutor also noted similarities between the Kneiding attack and another Night Stalker crime, the Zazzara attack on March 27, based on gunshot wounds to the head. However, no forensic evidence connected the two crimes and a different .22 revolver was allegedly used.

Incidentally, the Zazzara gun was allegedly connected to the Khovananth gun. This means that, although the Khovananth murder occurred on the same night as the Kneiding murder, different weapons were used.

There was some circumstantial evidence linking the Kneiding murders to the other Night Stalker crimes: items stolen from their home were recovered from the properties owned by Richard Ramirez’s fence, Felipe Solano.

On the surface, this looks compelling but is more complicated than it seems. In court, Felipe Solano’s testimony unravelled, when it was revealed he was protecting multiple criminals – one of these could have committed some of the Night Stalker crimes. There are so many questions that need answering in regard to Felipe Solano and this network of burglars.

According to Philip Carlo’s biography, a burglar associate of Ramirez, Sandra Hotchkiss, claimed that Solano was beaten up by police before being questioned about his connection to Ramirez. She tried to tell the District Attorney and claimed this beating was recorded on tape but the tape was never presented as evidence and the police denied the beating.

Ultimately, the chain of custody of the stolen items was never established, none was recovered from Richard Ramirez and his fingerprints were not found on any of them. At the end of the article, there will be a link to articles explaining the network of burglars in the Night Stalker case.

The defense neglected to present evidence showcasing the motive and opportunity of third-party suspects to commit crimes and sell stolen property, potentially implicating them in the offenses for which Richard was being tried.

Even though no physical evidence indicating he was the perpetrator was ever found, Richard Ramírez was convicted of the Kneiding murders and received the death penalty.

KayCee

Source: Document 14, 2008 Federal Petition for Writ of Habeas Corpus, Richard Ramírez vs. Robert Ayers.

30 responses to “The Kneiding Incident”

  1. They were really grasping at straws trying to connect him to this one. The dumbest part (in my opinion) was trying to connect it to the Vincow incident using freeways. It takes a certain level of stupid to come up with that!

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Not least because the crimes occurred 11 months apart! How many murders were committed in LA/LA County between June 84 and July 85… I’m guessing about 1000. All roads there lead to other roads, so this is a hilarious reach.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. It seems like “the purge” was going on all year long in LA county.

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    2. I agree. It’s absurd.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. From my limited knowledge on forensics I know that it’s nearly impossible to completely forensically scrub yourself of things like blood. I know from watching countless true crime shows and documentaries that biological evidence like blood is incredibly resilient. Even when people try to clean it with things like bleach it merely gets diluted or smeared. It would’ve been even easier for them to find traces of it in his car because cars have absorbent surfaces. Even with the primitive forensic technology they had in the 80’s I wouldn’t doubt that they would’ve been able to find something if it existed. It just doesn’t make sense how a homeless transient has the chemicals and tools to clean himself completely prior to going to another crime scene and not even transfer something microscopic. Richard was definitely not known for his cleanliness.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. We definitely cannot completely remove biological evidence from our person. Studies suggest that even bleach does not completely remove it from a crime scene.They were using trace evidence in U.S. courts in the 70s/80s. Although not as sensitive as current DNA technology, the testing they used was able to tie individuals to a crime scene. Trace evidence led to the I-5 killer being identified and arrested. I believe it was also trace evidence that was used against Ted Bundy.

      Liked by 2 people

  3. It’s baffling to me why the state refused to allow the firearms expert from Richard’s Writ to conduct further examination and testing of the ballistics. By preventing the defense from thoroughly investigating this crucial evidence, it only raises more questions and casts additional doubt on the prosecution’s already fragile case. The refusal to permit a more in-depth analysis not only undermines the integrity of the trial but also suggests that there might be something to hide.

    When the state blocks such critical aspects of the defense’s investigation, it can appear as though they are more interested in securing a conviction than in pursuing the truth. This kind of obstruction doesn’t just weaken the prosecution’s arguments; it erodes public trust in the justice system as a whole. In a fair trial, both sides should have equal opportunity to present and challenge evidence, especially in cases where someone’s life hangs in the balance.

    It’s troubling that there seem to be few, if any, legal consequences for this kind of obstruction. One would hope that there are safeguards in place to prevent such actions, but in this case, it appears those safeguards were either ignored or ineffective. Blocking a thorough investigation should be considered a serious violation, as it compromises the pursuit of justice and can lead to wrongful convictions. The legal system should be held accountable for ensuring that both the prosecution and the defense have the opportunity to fully explore all evidence, and any attempt to prevent this should carry significant repercussions.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Richard’s defence team did retain a firearms expert, Paul Dougherty, and then didn’t give him the evidence to test. So there was no rebuttal of the ballistics during the trial. Ray Clark conceded with “You have to assume the ballistics evidence was right”, or something like that. In 2004 Richard’s appellate lawyers retained Dougherty again and he was able to perform preliminary tests, in his declaration he determined that all ballistics evidence was faulty and unreliable and should be retested. whether that was going to be part of the evidentiary hearings, I don’t know. There is no more information.

      The state DID indeed block the fingerprint expert and Lisa DiMeo (shoeprints) from further analysis, which is highly suspicious.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. That makes a lot more sense I got the types of evidence mixed up. Thank you for clarifying!

        Liked by 1 person

      2. It’s not surprising really, lost guns, bloods, fingerprints and God knows what else. It’s ridiculous when you think about it.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. How the hell do you lose a whole ass gun?!

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      4. I know! Especially in such an important trial. Careless..lazy.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Do you think the jury primarily relied on the presence of Lela Kneiding’s jewelry in Solano’s stash to convict Richard of this crime? The ballistic and serological evidence didn’t seem very strong.

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    1. Yes, the jewellery certainly played a big part, even though Solano lied about who else he had obtained stolen items from. With hindsight, we know that the ballistics evidence was faulty/unreliable; the jury did not. They had heard the defence concede and not put forward any firearms expert of their own to counter the prosecution’s argument. The ballistics from the Kneiding incident was linked to the Okazaki/Hernandez and Yu incidents. Because of “spill-over”, if he did one, he did them all. That is all the jury was shown.
      Words are very important, this is what the jury would have remembered:
      From the petition, page 423

      In closing argument, the prosecution emphasized the defense’s failings. (See 206 RT 23735-40, 23745-86, 23788-826 (closing argument).) The
      prosecutor argued: “[B]ut you do know that it was with the same gun that murdered Ms. Okazaki, and the same gun that later murdered the Kneidings.” (206 RT 23735-36.) That is enough to put the thought there, and without a rebuttal, that was that.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Kristien Amer Avatar
    Kristien Amer

    Well, I can personally tell you exactly what Richard Ramirez was wearing when he killed them because he was at our house a few blocks away trying to break-in right before 💔 I had just turned 14 and my mom and I were home alone. He tried to get in my bedroom window and my mom and I followed him around the entire house as he tried every window and door repeatedly. It felt like hours but was probably about 10 minutes. When he couldnt get inside he just went down the street to their house 💔 I was in the 7th grade with their grandkids at the time 💔 Black hooded sweatshirt, black baseball cap, black pants and a black backpack which likely shielded his body. He could have just pulled off the sweatshirt after. There is at least one other house he also tried to get into that night too he was on a rampage which is what has always scared me the most 💔 Every night on the news that summer they would remind everyone to LOCK YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS because at the time he was still known as the “Walk in killer” and he would never break-in. After he was arrested he said his victims deserved to die because they didn’t lock their doors. I had actually been told their backdoor by the pool was open and unlocked. There was an intense heatwave at the time. Very very sad traumatic event 💔🌈🌸 RIP

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    1. Oh, my goodness, how utterly terrifying for you, I am sure the police were very grateful for such a detailed description of the person at your house when your mother called to tell them someone was trying to break in.
      The shirt found near the location had no blood on it, as was discovered when it was finally tested and was probably unrelated.
      Somkid Khovananth, who was a victim that same night, (within minutes and 15 miles away, according to the prosecution) gave a detailed description of brown pants and a multicoloured shirt worn by the killer.
      That must’ve been a speedy change of outfit and weapons, perhaps that was why he had the backpack… A full wash and brush up, new clothes and on to the next.
      What an appalling night.
      There’s such a plethora of these sightings and near misses that we are determined to do a post to map them all out. We can include yours, too.
      Indeed, RIP.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. No, my family and I do NOT like talking about this and we moved out of LA immediately after.
        We do NOT want to be on any maps please.
        I left my comment after accidentally seeing this thread and I would like you to please stop speculating and spreading conspiracy theories.
        We knew the victims so it has always been hard to deal with the fact that we survived that night.
        He could have taken some of the victims clothes it is impossible to say what he wore at any specific time. I can only confirm that we came face to face with him less than an hour before he killed the Kneidings who lived a few blocks from us.
        He had a backpack that also could have had clothes he was basically homeless. This guy ruined a lot of lives.
        Good luck to all of you I just wanted to confirm what I know actually happened because I was there. Luckily I was only 14 and didn’t quite understand yet until I got older.
        I hate talking about this it scares me. My entire life I have always been afraid to open curtains or blinds because me night be outside my window again.
        The Kneidings are a wonderful family and Judy helped convict him.
        Please stop speculating and or spreading conspiracy theories.
        Thank you.

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      2. We wondered why you did not take part in any identification, seeing as you saw him so clearly. I am sorry that happened to you, but you were not at the crime scene.
        We take all our information from court documents and the case files, not some random thoughts in our heads; in other words, we are not conspiracy theorists. Court/legal documents are not a conspiracy.
        There are so many out there, just like you, who say they saw him outside their house. So many. Isn’t that a curious thing.

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      3. Do you write to criminal defense attorneys and tell them to stop peddling conspiracy theories? Because all we are doing is sharing what his lawyers wrote. I don’t care if you have a link to a victim. You’re not relevant to anything and don’t get to dictate what people write about. I’m not interested in anything you have to say.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. None of the surviving victims saw anyone dressed like this so it makes you unique. Did you attend the line-ups?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. You are referencing documents from 1985 before he was even caught. As I mentioned YES we have communicated with the original lead Detectives but that does NOT mean we need to speak publically. Seriously, please stop! There are no “Accurate” records in this case aside from the Detectives reports which none of you have access to. I am literally asking you to stop. You weren’t there and whatever is on the internet is NOT reliable. People DIED that night. Please have some respect.

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      2. You don’t get to dictate what people post on their websites. How entitled you are.
        You must be profoundly stupid if you think legal documents and trial transcripts are “unreliable” things we randomly found on the internet. No reading comprehension at all. And we’ve proven over and over that the detectives have lied. But you’re dense so of course you take everything at face value. Haven’t you got some AI generated scribbly “art” to be getting on with?

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      3. How about you just stop coming here? You didn’t randomly find us, that’s not how it works. You’ve obviously actively searched for content using his name. I imagine you do it all the time.
        Nothing was randomly found on the internet, we have case files and viewed the originals in Los Angeles.
        You don’t get to police what people write about the case. Go and hang out on the YouTube edits or something. They don’t use the court documents where all our stuff originates from.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. As for referencing reports from 85, that’s where the discrepancies lie.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. It blows my mind that people still don’t comprehend what we are presenting. The 1985 police statements are more reliable than subsequent identifications because the witnesses were unaffected by outside influences.

        It is from those 1985 statements that we see that the “dishevelled hair, stained gapped teeth, black clothes” person didn’t exist.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. Yeah, that logic is incomprehensible to virtue signallers.

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      7. It also remains unexplained why questioning cases is disrespectful to victims. I understand that the idea a victim didn’t get justice might be painful but our work has potential to solve something if anyone wanted to investigate.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. I think she should save her anger for those (mentioning no names *cough* lead detective *cough*) who make money from retelling the horror for entertainment purposes during his wine and crime evenings.
        Now, that is disrespectful. We have always focused on the proceedings, not the blood.

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      9. My personal favourite comment is the one that demands that we stop speculating… While simultaneously speculating that Richard wore the Kneidings’ clothes to explain how he was wearing blue at the Khovananth house. Any bullshit to preserve some fantasy that she was involved in the great Los Angeles legend.

        Liked by 1 person

      10. Also “you weren’t there.” Okay… I guess all historians need to pack up and get a new job now. You can only understand things that happened in the past if you were a personal witness. Got it.

        Liked by 1 person

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